Just like black folks to criticize another black person for doing big things. First black man to own his own studio. 75 percent of his staff is African American. 90 percent of the actors he casts are African American. His subject matter may be a bit redundant and predictable, but from what I’ve seen there is a good balance. Spike Lee is a fucking joke in my opinion. A bitter, washed up, has been.

I agree with Brandon.

Thank you Brandon!:)

I agree about the sitcom stereotypes that are on the SHOWS, but other than that, I think you guys & that girl are being a little too mean & judgmental, LOLOL! WOW, I think MOST of his success is simply because God gets a kick out of the guy for WHATEVER reason, I just feel he has FAVOR dernit, FLAWS and ALL, he gets the BIG breaks..he’s just DOING HIM, that’s ALL ANY of us can EVER do! ; )

WAYNE needs to just hurry up and GET out there and represent the STUFF YOU GUYS want to SEE, Tyler needs to DO Tyler and WAYNE needs to get out there and REP the OTHER stuff you guys feel the movie world NEEEDS! It will be ONE big BEAUTIFUL picture, I think Black America is TOO diverse to put the expectations to SATISFY us ALL with ONE major BLACK film DIRECTOR, LOL, WAAAY TOO MUCH TO ASK! HA!

I like Tyler Perry…but more than that, I respect his work…thank goodness he came along because all we had were the Wayans…the only thing I don’t like is Meet the Browns…the whole stereotype of fat black people being everyone’s comic relief really needs to go…WILL ANYONE EVER FOLLOW THE COSBY SHOW? A doctor and a lawyer raising beautiful, smart black children…now that’s wassup!

He’s not getting criticized for doing big things. He gets praised for that. He gets criticized for the quality of his work. It’s hard to deny the fact that his characters are underdeveloped.

Their actions are unmotivated. His film’s plots are weak and underdeveloped. With his resources, he really should employ better writers & directors than himself.

Negative – I heard Spike Lee’s rambling ass interview. He went on to say that T. Perry is a coon, only gives black people stereotypical subject matter, etc, etc. Black people suffer from a disease called haterism. They can’t stand when another black person is doing shyt. There is zero unity in the black community, we would rather talk down on our own then say something postive. Whites, Jews, Latinos, etc. all have way more unity, while we stay divided. And then we wonder why shyt never gets better for our own.

And why does he have to do that? Why can’t this man make movies about whatever the hell he wants. To say it would be nice to see him expand his horizons is one thing, to criticize dude for it is another.

Unity at ANY cause? Why don’t we have the same philosophy about Obama? I’m glad a Black man is doin well; especially in THIS economy, but why doesn’t he put more effort into filmmaking?

What do you mean unity at “any” cause. He’s keeping black folks employed in droves first and foremost, especially with most other movies studios you will barely find a black face. Most of the movies and plays I have seen from this man have an underlying message, villian, hero, love story and some with a Christian theme. Predictable and boring sometimes – yes, but hardly the blaxploitation tag that people try and label his work with. Tyler Perry is not a political message movie maker like a Spike Lee type and he shouldn’t be expected to be. Instead of Spike Lee talking shit like his lil midget ass always seems to be doing, why not get in contact with TP and share ideas? Just a thought.

I really like “I can do bad all by myself” with Taraji and the first “Why Did I get Married”…Too was ehhh…The fact that he made such an empire for himself is brilliant tho, has his own studio/production company so he pays himself everytime he makes a movie…that’s the business…now he just has to step his game up and bring it!

This conversation sounds like the coastal elite trying to convince a southerner to “get” 30 Rock. Tyler Perry doesnt move me, but he makes a lot of sense to a lot of people and that is just great. I am not moved by underdeveloped characters as John described. Forget the fact hes black and doing great things I agree that the quality of the movies subject matter development and follow through severely lack what I consider valuable arrangement. Im also over my black men in drag… However if the message of togetherness can be accomplished and spread in households where men arent present or grama’s no longer cook dinner on Sundays I can respect it.

Such an intelligent discussion on a man with so much influence on black cinema. thank you guys!

From what I heard, the fellas have given Tyler Perry his props! They are criticizing the quality of his film making. They have acknowledged that he has a niche audience and he has mastered giving them what they want. all they have said was why can’t he keep doing what he’s doing AND provide more of a platform for other african-american directors and writers, including spike, to use his abundant resources that he so brilliantly created! there was no haterade. black folks need to be able to disagree and have different opinions and not be called “haters”. that’s such a cop-out word. why am i a hater when i just happen to have a different opinion! don’t you think white folks have differing opinions on things within their own race? sounds like in the end they considered Tyler Perry to be a tycoon. i hope people actually listened to the podcast and not just went off the title and formed a judgement. “coon or tycoon” was a very clever “bait”, as Tyler Perry would say, to get people to click and listen but i hope that it didn’t color their attitudes towards giving it an open and honest ear!

Enjoyed the discussion…. You guys are hilarious too!

Great job fellas! I loved it!

Your shows make my work go a lot better. Speaking of speaking to a certain demographic, I think you guys speak to me. It means a lot to have you guys disc, talking over a demographics head, the problems with T.P dumbing down entertainment, while John and Wayne still Drop the (N) Bomb. Classic, I love it.

great conversation…

there’s a reason why Silkk The Shocker had albums ” coldest line..

OK OK OK UGGH!!! I like to be entertained and I’m entertained. Sometimes I wish we were European Americans because no one criticize their art! E V E R Y human is an individual and not everyone will like you NO MATTER WHAT. Just be proud of the man gee wiz!! This is lowkey irritating. I guess and hopefully if you guys can do it better please do and I will support you too until then I am watching The Family that Preys” and you guys have a wonderful and blessed day!

I was actually referring to Spike Lee as a hater, which he most definitely is. And I was speaking of the lack of support from blacks for other blacks in the black community. It is widely known by most that black folks in fact suffer from haterism. When we start supporting each other with mainly positive vibes, we will be unstoppable.

if your are talented and your’re willing at any time to emasculate yourself, you’re gonna make hella money in the movie business. read up on the conspiracy to destroy black boys….it’s all related..

Good post! Thought provoking and valid points made on both sides of the issue. Fortunately there is more than one niche market to be had.. so that TP films does not set the standard or representative of what the entire black viewing audience wants to see. I’m proud of his accomplishments, but agree that it’s time to raise the bar on the type of films he and other black talented writers, directors he could bring to the table and the power to make decisions by him owning his own studio.

Interesting. I know Tyler has a message, but the art is not there. The acting is bad and the writing is worse. But he’s got $$ so that’s what matters.
(And the TV show is even worse.) I agree with the D.O.C. Whut up, Wayne.

tyler perry is lazy!! he makes soo much money writing, producing, and directing his own stuff.. people will go no matter what.. so what incentive does he have to actually make good work.. someone else should write and direct..but that would mean taking money out of his pocket.. lazy and stingy.. no desire in making respectable art! please go away tyler perry.

p.s. he is made for plays, not movies.. big difference

Excellent discussion brothers, I’m glad both side of the spectrum were addressed. Hopefully there will be more to come.

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Tiffany, Tiffany. Tiffany said: http://www.sicklycat.com/2010/05/17/tyler-perry-coon-or-tycoon/ [...]

Let the box office speak! Love him or hate him Tyler has let the box office do the talking. He does what he does! The challenge is for you to do better. We can talk about quality however people respond to Ma Dea. If you want better write it shoot it! If not you are riding his coat tail! Both Spike and Tyler are relevant and needed along with a new fusion of filmmakers and fans! Both are entertainment! Values should be taught and enforced in the home and the community! People who watched the Moe, Curly, and Larry knew that it was entertainment. If you want quality seek it. there are independents out there that are written with quality. Support it and you will find that doors open.

I don’t consider Spike Lee a hater. I think he is frustrated and upset by the lack of change and tunnel vision offerings of Tyler Perry’s film and television productions that limit the flexibility of the black experience and social interpretation of “us”. He is stating his case as a genius film maker who creates complete characters that translate to an audience and catapulted the images of black people and other races ideas of our progress and stagnation. Tyler Perry has failed us with “Meet the Browns”. Point Blank Period!

Look at shows like “The Cosby Show” and “A Diff’Rent World” which were popular at the very same time Spike Lee’s career first took off. The 80’s were a dismal time for black Americans suffering through Reaganomics and at the height of the crack pandemic yet in this very same period we were given images of intelligence, romance and fully developed characters with real life issues set to musical scores filled with jazz music and inspired sometimes angry revolutionary hip hop music that for many made us want to go to college to meet a Dwayne or a Whitley ♥ … I will say that despite the buffoonery in Tyler Perry’s stage plays, tv shows and movies he does provide a very realistic POV for a very large demographic, but its time for a change or at least a smaller collective/division under his brand to create more intellectual work for the demographic he is not reaching.

If he is going to keep using the word “us” I’m going to need him to represent “me” and he is not doing quite that just yet. I wish him the best of luck and I hope to see more of him and better from him. He has the resources to do so very much and I believe he will heed the call to action as he is a genius his damn self.

Spike Lee is a has been. He used to be on point, but his work on “She Hate Me” “Girl 6″ and “Inside Man” make him washed up and bitter at anyone who is currently popular and relevant. He hasn’t made a good movie in 15 years.

Sorry, in the interview “I” listened to, he had a lil bit too much disdain for the man in his voice than I prefer.

We can agree to disagree on the quality levels of certain pieces of art as they are interpretive and subjective. I personally thought “She Hate Me” was brilliant and written in soliloqys reminiscent of a James Baldwin novel. Slightly schizophrenic and impatient in its arrangement but consice and intelligent… not to mention kinda sexy… I dont own a thought to change your mind… Im just glad my mind can change. ♥ ya boo!

Black people kill me with that bullshyt. Not everyone wants to put on an afro and raise their fists in protest 24/7. This is like comparing Martin Lawrence to Sidney Poitier. The man make movies about subject matter that he wants to make it about. No one cried foul when Martin dressed up as Big Mama. It’s entertainment, get the phuck over it. And She Hate Me and He Got Game sucked major ass. LOL ♥

Actually I just told a friend of mine that i appreicate how Dave Chapelle never dressed in drag and thay called him crazy for not taking the money continuing to let people laugh at us rather than with us. I miss his show however. He’s a genius to me too… Anyway I thought He Got Game was brilliant too… But then again as I said appreciation is subjective.

bwahahahaha – did he fool you too? How much money did Dave Chapelle make off buffoonry before this spiritual epiphany? Drag no, but how about dressing as a white man and and black white supremacist? Crackhead? LOL, funny who we judge and who we let slide.

He ammeded himself. He quit the show. He had a breakdown. He withdrew. He made a whole lotta money Im sure and I super cant even begin to deny that I miss the characters and the show SO MUCH!!!! Are we comparing skits and brief moments of exploitation meant to pander to peoples inappropriate stereotypes and offset humor that were the eventual decline in the conscience of the creator to Meet the Browns where the characters are meant to be viewed as realistic examples of the black family?

Chapelle’s show had underlying social commentary that was satirical. TP’s comedy is just low intelligence.

Why does comedy and entertainment have to have a message? LOL, that’s dumb as hell. Sometimes mutha phuckas just wanna laugh. I don’t disect everything I watch, sometimes I just want to be entertained. SC – are you a Martin Lawrence fan? I bet you are. Tyler Perry doesn’t write documentaries. He makes fluffy non-fictional films. Some bad, some good. During this process dude has become a phucking king. What’s the issue? Why are Spike lee’s panties getting bunched up? I’ll tell you why, jealousy. Point blank. And it’s quite funny to me because dude must be appealing to a large number of people that find some kind of message in his work, because they keep going back for more. Just a thought.

I loved “Friday” actually. No message there. The comedy was just funny. Madea is NOT funny.

As a matter of fact, Next Friday and Friday after next was more in line with TP’s brand of comedy. Just stupid.

LOL -hahahaha. To each his own I guess. Madea’s laughing all the way to the bank. Guess some people like her/him.

All Im sayin is my dear aggressive friend is that Tyler Perry uses the word “us” in damn near all of his interviews and that “us” does not include “me” and guess what I’m black. Shit! I know white folx that detest Guy Richie films. I know white folx that think Woody Allen is a crock of shit and doesnt represent them and he DOES NOT! FINE! The difference is however that Tyler Perry is the face of black media damn near parallel to Oprah “RIGHT NOW” When the man hollers us he has a responsibility to represent us and thus far has not done that. He is loyal to his southern and or christian man missing from the household base and that does not represent me and I cant holler enough that if he is gonna holler us i need to be represented however that is… his languange places him in 100% responsibility for doing more which translates as better… I feel what you are saying about just wanting to shit and giggle but thats what he has set out to do…

Where’s my phucking violin when I need it? Tyler Perry doesn’t have a responsibility to do shit for anyone. He makes movies based on what he believes, and if you go see it then great for him. Just because he says for “us” doesn’t mean he has to represent every black person out there. If that was the case then he would have to be talking to Muslims, people in prison, thugs, etc. and so forth and so one. His product has an underlying “positive” message, so for that I applaud the man and wish him continued success.

Phew… great job Leslie & Brandon! I was entertained and educated!

Without Spike Lee there would be no Tyler Perry, Mkay? Let’s not get THAT twisted. And I’m not a Tyler Perry fan either. I think his work is lackluster at best. And he seems to have a difficult time writing dialogue for men. See ‘Why Did I Get Married Too’.
Although, I do respect that he’s built his empire and employs mostly African Americans~ which is unheard of in show business. I think that he is more a playwright than a filmmaker. But truth be told, as long he keeps hiring Janet Jackson, I will be right there opening weekend!

Tyler Perry films are not just for folk from the South! Fellas people are crazy about him in LA TOO!

I am really not a big fan because his movies are silly. My thing is I don’t want to see a grown brotha dressed as woman.

Tyler Perry was successful because he had a supporting cast from his plays and he flipped his money and created his own studio! I can’t hate on that!

Good Subject! Keep them coming!

interesting convo. thanks for providing more insight on this topic

I just want to say I enjoyed this conversation a lot and thanks for all involved for putting it together. However, I have a few issues.

I think it’s problematic to think of any race, black included, as monolithic. This was touched on in the conversation, but its real significance was not addressed. You are black men talking about a black man as if you were somehow inherently connected to him, yet you go on about how if you were in his position, you would act differently. Clearly you do not have much in common with Tyler Perry. A black person doesn’t need to be forced to consider himself/herself in the same category as Tyler Perry and the people who love his work merely because you are black.

On the other hand I think there was some unnecessarily divisive language. I think there was a general stereotyping of Southern African-Americans as fans of Perry’s work. “Southern” was thrown around as an indicator of uneducated and simple people. Stereotyping in any way is just as dangerous as some of the negative stereotypes some may claim pervade Perry’s work.

I think it was Rashad El Amin who said something like “Whether the movies are good is not important, it’s the inherent theme of happiness that is there, happiness is smart.” I think that was extremely significant. This is, in fact, the universal aspect (not race, stupidity, or Southernness); this is a condition of life and a value. This is the meat of the issue.

- So I’m not Black nor from the South nor consider myself extra Christian (or at all really) but I am the person who supported Spike films and somehow fell in love with Rosie Perez. I LOVE the art of film and I support my actors/producers of color religiously. I participate in opening weekend box office numbers consistently & purchase those that I somewhat liked just to help with the numbers. I love Tyler & Spike and I feel that it’s important to support as much as possible, independent films included. As an outsider who passionately supports Tyler and R. Rodriguez – I do feel like it’s time for an upgrade on Tyler, he SHOULD begin to develop a more refined version of his messages and Meet the Browns is trash HOWEVER he is doing SOMETHING and expressing “HAPPINES” “EMPOWERMENT” “STRUGGLE” “NEW LOVE” and through Madea & C. Tyson reminds us of discipline and the family stucture and lack of unison which exits across all cultures. I love his efforts and wouldnt dare compare him to Spike, I think Tyler still wants to stay SAFE and in what guarantees him numbers – I dont think they are innovative and bold films but they do inspire happiness and appreciation for different perspectives even for someone who is not part of the niche he has chosen to cater to.

It’s incredible that as a people we are so destructive towards one another. Tyler Perry has overcome insurmoutable odds as a businessman and a person. He had a ream he followed it and made it come true. I was almost proud of Spike Lee because it seemed he has come a long way. I guess it’s only on screen he’s obviously still a small man and not only in stature. His first film was “She’s Gotta Have It” Spike Lee should shut up! You would think he would understand.

Lol Dag I meant he had a Dream! (Not a ream)

I don’t think Tyler’s a coon, but do agree that most of his characters seem one-dimensional and stereotypical…I’m also dismayed at the notion of his taking on the play, “For Colored Girls who have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow is Enuf.”

This is hilarious. TP is a movie maker who has made millions selling the “type” shows he creates. I don’t care for a lot of his tv shows, but he didn’t write them for me. There are those who evidently enjoy he television shows, because they are still on the air. I don’t know about Spike Lee’s position that he is an uncle tom or some less than “Spike Lee” movie maker. I can count on one hand the movies SL made that I really enjoyed. At the end of the day, they are both multi millionaires and I am still NOT. Whatever they have done has made them physically and financially rich! I support them both, not because I enjoy their work, but because I want them to do well.

JohnCByrdIII & Leslie (thick Chick #1), kudos… You both make very strong and valid points. Some people will just NEVER get it. I know it’s hard to just let a sleeping brother lie, but sometimes it’s best. Come on… how can anyone compare Chapelle’s classic renditions to buffoonery? But, then again, many don’t know what satire is. I don’t believe in giving a person a pass just because they have the same skin color as mine. It should be “our” responsibility to pull a “brother” the collar and say enough is enough. It’s about intellectual, spiritual, and psychological growth. It says a lot when one focuses only on the economics.

Remember… ‘A person convinced against their will, is of the same opinion still.’

I have seen a few of Mr. Perry’s movies and one of his plays. I will say that Madea is an interesting character, but I cannot identify with her, because the women in my family don’t usually behave that way. I believe that Mr. Perry makes his mark in our community by giving life to stereotypes that are most prevalent in our lives particularly between black men and black women. Not only that, those stereotypes are believed by everybody else. Being that many teenagers are estranged from their fathers, his dramas are a teaching tool that the students learn from. He is making money off the conflict between black men and black women by packaging it as real and normal life to appeal to the masses. He is the Don King in the black battle of the sexes. That used to be prevalent in the 60′s and 70′s for white folks. So that gives you an idea that we are still far behind. Is that all his fault? Of course not, because there is a ton of truth in the films and plays he produces. So in a way, we are all complicit. I wish he would do more documentaries to substantiate and present facts behind the work he offers the public.

The thing is, as long as we aren’t acting right as a community, the media and mainstream filmmakers will have something to exploit.

Very good points DJ!

I love it!

Tyler Perry’s career is just more evidence of the fall of black people.

If you look at our music, sports figures, political passivity and the male/female mess, we have lost it. We now worship the drug dealer, the religious pimps and media pimps like Perry.

He is an uneducated, pandering buffoon and those of you apologizing for him are just as bad. That’s right, if you like his crap you are probably an ignorant, uneducated, white Jesus worshiping Negro or a fat, manless single mother.

He is no different than Lincoln Perry (StepNFetchit) who ruined the first Negro cinema revolution or Jimmie Walker who ruined the 70′s effort. The studios can always find some coon who will do this kind of thing and he is always amply rewarded and then dumbass Negroes defend the coon by saying “well he’s successful” or trying to intellectualize the crap he does. People actually said StepNFetchit was doing satire!

Stop fooling yourselves, people. We are sick and Tyler Perry is one of the many symptoms.

Why is it that anyone of color that has any kind of sucsess in any field they then have to become the spokesman for the rest of us.Maybe if we build up are own house holds and stop trying to find a hero other races will stop thinking that we listen to everything other poeple say(rappers athlets).Lets face it the only time most white poeple beleive what someone black says is if its in a rap song or if they are telling on someone else black.Its just movies and music i dont know what these poeple do when they go home Spike included. One last thing there is a reason socialy uplifting movies and music dont make MONEY.I DONT NEED A HERO I JUST WANT A GOOD MOVIE AND MUSIC WHAT EVER KIND I LIKE!

Roflmao, I’m laughing at everything Brandon said for the shear ignorance of it. Yes Tyler Perry has found a niche that he caters his movies to. Welcome to capitalism, anyone with a large amount of money in this system has it because they found a portion of the population to exploit. That being said he he’s exploiting a portion of the populace and doing it in such a way that he outputs minimum effort and gains maximum profit and you call him a genius for that? White men managed to turn slavery into one of the most profitable industries in history thanks to the cotton gin and free labor they exploited a populace and we call them bastards for it. Because Tyler Perry has found a way to do as little as possible make movies that are insulting to the intelligence of the people that consume him and you call him a hero. Absurd!

Dang William! Great perspective!

Also with respect to his employing mostly black people. My understanding is he employs them outside of the union and pays them below union rates. While it’s great to employ mostly black people he’s not really doing them a favor in the long run because in the event that Tyler Perry is no longer capable of employing them their experience working with him is moot because they were scabs and can’t get a job at all where the unions are involved. Also if he wanted to he could retire tomorrow, I wonder what his retirement plans look like for his employees.

I agree with the sister and her comments….Especially as a black man from the south…we are more than just woman beaters or cheater…we are prosperous and educated, so please increase the dialouge and inhance our intellect. Great topics fellas…keep it up.

He’s not a coon, but his films are horrible.

I know Tyler and Spike personally and have worked with both of them. Trust me. There is a huge difference in the men and their talent. One man has made a lot of money on the blatant exploitation of his people and their faith. On a very basic level, he has made artistic decisions reflecting this perverse exploitation as a means to further his own ends. Although it is not his responsibility to be the spokesperson for modern African American culture, I think everyone can agree that his idea of what we represent is a little dated, but we still love watching it?

The other director, resting completely on his work, has actually positioned himself to help the African American community by representing strong characters and a real representation of the world as it is. This director is respected by his peers of all races and nationalities and will probably continue to make great films because that is what he is about. Don’t be fooled by the quick money. Just look at an artists body of work and judge them on who they have become in this world, not just our increasingly isolated community. Someday the real truth regarding your hero will be revealed and the world will be a better place.

I’m confused why people still watch Tyler Perry’s shit. It MUST be the Southern taste in entertainment. I get “stupider” every time I see a scene.

My vote is for COON!

First off I commend Tyler Perry for his success(My Non-Hater Obligatory Statement). Tyler Perry got rich off an old Flip Wilson blueprint. Flip Wilson was popular for playing a drag character named Geraldine Jones. This character coined a phrase “The Devil made me do it” and was a national success. At the time Flip Wilson was considered a coon by many blacks. If you look up Blaxploitation he’s a poster-child for that era. Flip Wilson’s legacy is in alignment with acts such as Stepin Fetchit and Moms Mabley. 30 years later enters Tyler Perry with his ode to Geraldine named Madea. If you do the research, their acts were almost identical (a damn rip-off in my opinion). Now, why was it considered “cooning” then but now it’s considered pioneering? People justified blacks accepting those roles back then because there wasn’t opportunities for black actors at that time. What’s Tyler Perry’s excuse. Spike Lee washed up??…blasphemy!!!! Spike Lee took creative risk that ultimately got him blacked-balled. Spike refused to fall into Hollywood’s streotypical mold, rather taking a bold and risky lane. Not to mention he gave all of our TOP black actor’s their first big breaks (i.e Wesley Snipes, Denzel Washington, Halle Berry, Samuel L. Jackson and Mekhi Phifer etc.) Besides, no one can deny that Malcom X was one of the best black films(as well as a 5 star critic rating) of our lifetime. So do your history before talking out your a$$.

I agree with you Mr. Hays. Tyler Perry is a modern day Step n Fetchit. He is a damn coon! I don’t like it. I am one his peers being that we are the same age. The difference between Spike and Tyler is that Spike showed DIVERSITY in his films. From the blues movie to Malcolm X to a host of different types of movies like Crooklyn etc. Tyler on the other hand gets rich off of STEREOTYPICAL images of blacks. Not every black has a Madea. Not every black is of the HOOD! I am Christian but not every black is even Christian. Yet if you critique Tyler Perry many black folks will get angry. I suppose those are the STEREOTYPICAL black folks that like his movies. nnWith the exception of maybe one or two movies, who has Tyler tried to UPLIFT in his movies? Also, just because a person makes money does not make a person MORALLYu00a0 correct. Black folk are in love with his money but fail to see the message that he sends.nIn most of his movies, Tyler destroys the image of the Black male anyway.nn

I wish Melissa but too many black folks like catering to Bling (materialism) and stereotypes. And we wonder why many of us are in the positions that we are in.n

[...] have enjoyed a single Tyler Perry film or [...]